Judson Robinson III

Duration: 49mins 32secs
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Interview with: Judson Robinson III
Interviewed by: Louis Marchiafava
Date: May 8, 1995
Archive Number: OH 436

LM: 00:05 This interview will provide, basically, some background information from the time before you entered office until the present. I will be asking you for some insights as a new member of city council as to what you expected, what you found, and just some private or insightful views as to how the city council works. Prior to that, I’d like to ask some questions about your indoctrination into politics.

JR: Very good.

LM: We’ll see how that sounds.

JR: Okay.

LM: Today is May 8, 1995. This is Louis Marchiafava interviewing Mr. Judson Robinson III, city council member for Houston, Texas. I will begin the interview by asking some very basic questions. You were born here in Houston?

JR: That’s right, born here in Houston.

LM: And your grandfather was in business.

JR: That’s right.

LM: Real estate, I think it was.

JR: That’s right, real estate and insurance.

LM: And your father was also involved in real estate and business and was a long-term city council member. In fact, I had the pleasure of interviewing him many years ago. He was a city council member then, but he was still in the real estate business. How much were you influenced or directed toward your present position in your young years? Did you ever think about, say, in your late teens, early 20s, following in your father’s footsteps?

JR: 02:10 To a degree. I saw how hard my dad worked, I saw the late hours, I saw all the early mornings going different places and the important dates that were sometimes important to the family that had to take second or a back seat to what the public had requested him to do and a lot of problems associated with that. I can remember a lot of discussions at the kitchen table where he just was frustrated, didn’t quite know what to do, was angry, and those are the kinds of memories that made me not real comfortable with assuming the same type of life and lifestyle. So it wasn’t a real incentive, I think, until I began to grow up a little bit, got more mature, understood that responsibility is a part of life, running away from tough issues never solves any of them, and that when you took them head-on you had a lot more to be proud of. So yeah, I would think more into my late 20s I really started seriously considering doing this, but at the same time I knew what it was about. I think a lot of people get into politics not really knowing what it’s about. And growing up around it you see the glamorous side as well as the not-so-glamorous side, so it was a bit more of a decision for me because I really did know what I was getting into. (phone rings)

LM: Do you have to take that?

JR: Yeah. Sorry.

LM: Where were we?

JR: We were just talking about what I understood about politics. The reason I’ve got my son with me today is just to kind of break the mold every now and then and not fall into the pattern of always sacrificing the family for the public, because the public is very demanding. Although they say they understand and they can appreciate you being with family and doing other things that are important to you, you can also sense that they really hate that you’re not there with them, that you’re not making their event, and that there really is perhaps not as great an appreciation as they might say there is for their understanding of a man’s need to raise his family.

LM: 05:29 That’s interesting. I don’t know of any other city council member that’s ever attempted that. I congratulate you. That’s innovative.

JR: Well, it doesn’t happen often enough, and we oftentimes need a real good excuse to make it happen, but we find them, I think, almost often enough.

LM: One area I wanted to talk to you about is your background, your education. Did it in any way prepare you for what you were forced to deal with in politics?

JR: I didn’t study political science, I didn’t take any social sciences type thing dealing with psychology and those types of things, never did any social work, but I went to a liberal arts school. I went to Fisk University—the same place my dad graduated from, my uncle, my aunt, my great-uncle—a very old African American school, fairly prestigious, and liberal arts, so it was a real good, broad brush understanding of a lot of different subjects and meeting folks from all over the country because it’s in Nashville, Tennessee, it’s kind of easy to get to from a lot of places. I studied business. I intended on going into business with my father. So when you kind of know what you’re going to be doing, you tend to maybe be a little less exploratory, I guess, in some of the other areas that I may have genuinely been interested in. But being that there was a business in place already with my name on the building, I felt like I would certainly become one of the members of Judson W. Robinson and Sons.

LM: And you are.

JR: Judson W. Robinson and Sons. Yes. My dad was the broker in that business. Unfortunately, when he died there went the broker. The laws changed during the period of time in which I began pursuing a career in real estate. When I first got my license, you had to be a salesman for two years and then go take the broker’s test. That changed over that two-year period of time after I became a real estate salesman, and it’s just one of those funny things. The law hadn’t changed in a zillion years, and then all of a sudden you had to go back and get all these additional classroom hours. By that time I was a city council member, and the last thing that I have any excess of is time, unless you want to be one of those council members that’s not visible, that doesn’t go a lot of places, that can kind of put your foot down and say, “Listen, I’m just here. I was elected to vote on the agenda every week. That takes a night of preparation or two and that day in council. So the Tuesday and Wednesday is what you elected me for, and that’s all you get.” Now, if in fact that’s your philosophy and you can get away with it, then, yeah, I guess I could have gone back to school and done all that. But I elected to be a visible council person and try to be out in the community. So to become a broker is something down the road I intend to do, and Judson Robinson and Sons will function again in a capacity in which it had for many, many years. But when my dad died, we legally could not function as a real estate firm because he was the broker of the firm.

LM: 09:56 So right now the business is sort of in limbo.

JR: It’s sort of in limbo. We have, for the sake of the building, leased it out so that we’ve got warm bodies in there that are using the AC and the heating. It’s good for the building. We put a three-year lease on the building about a year and a half ago. I still practice real estate, but I practice it under the brokership of Calvin Alexander, a longtime friend of the family. We still do the business, my mother and I, but not out of the same facility.

LM: How did you feel about your mother assuming a role in city government after your father passed on?

JR: I was really proud of her. She got a chance to really see that her opinion was one that could be favorably viewed in a totally different arena. Here’s a person that doesn’t have a college degree, that went to New York at 15 years old and studied nursing and graduated from a nursing school there and then moved to Texas and made a name for herself. She was the first black RN at Anheuser-Busch Brewery back in the olden days when guys were cutting themselves with all that aluminum and the glass for the bottles and things. And after doing that for several years, she went ahead and joined my dad’s firm and was really the office manager. After a few years she really knew all the ins and outs of that business and ran it while he was out doing a multitude of other things. So to come into council and then also excel in this job— A lot of people still tell me she was a great council member.

LM: There is a question I wanted to ask you. Because of being both in the public arena and being out in the business world in Houston, how much racism is still out there? Do you encounter much of it? Did your mother encounter much of it when she was a city council member?

JR: 12:32 I don’t know if she did or not. I think there’s still a basic distrust between races; that we’re all out for ourselves. People always assume that I’m a district council member. They ask me all the time, “Which district do you represent?” And I always have to remind people, “I represent you, whatever district you live in.” And they’re always a little surprised but remembering that, hey, it’s the ‘90s. Blacks have been elected at large now for more than ten years.

LM: The Dallas mayor was elected.

JR: That’s right. They just had Ron Kirk elected in Dallas. So I think sometimes you can overreact to racism. If you walk into a room where there’s mostly white people, as I did this weekend, you just have to be aggressive, especially if it’s faces that you don’t know. If it’s faces that you know, people that know you, then you typically don’t have a problem. They’ll include you in their discussions and make you feel at home and a part of whatever. But if it’s not, then it’s probably just like any other stranger that enters a room. You need to be aggressive and make yourself known. But certainly there is, I think, still a problem in society between people clashing over ethnicity versus we’re all American. It has really gotten down to the Us versus Them thing again. When a person thinks about crime, they typically put a black face on it, when blacks were probably more responsible for more petty crimes and certainly crimes on one another. When you think about poverty and social services, you think about blacks. But as we all know, there are more Anglos that receive food stamps and that type of thing.

LM: Old age assistance.

JR: Yeah, yeah. So there are a lot of stereotypes that society puts on different ethnic groups that makes it even more of a challenge for them to overcome, but black folks have been free now some 300+ years, which isn’t a long time when you compare it to the Chinese culture of thousands of years and Germans and Jewish and Irish. There’s just an evolution process that I think we’re struggling with and going through, and people try to hold you down and hold you back because there appears to be only so much pie to go around. There’s always going to be that dominant group out there that tries to control the resources and control the opportunity. It’s unfortunate, but I’m not sure it’s just blindly racism. I think it’s a protectionism thing. It’s Us versus Them, and the Them just happens to be minorities. It’s just another group of folks that’s striving to get somewhere, and it appears to us that when they get somewhere, it’s getting something against us, it’s getting some of what we once had. So I’m sure for Anglos that’s a real problem, but the reality is we’re all stronger if we work together. The criminal justice system cannot become the warehouse for ethnic minorities. You cannot deplete the resources necessary to properly educate people and then say, “Well, you had the opportunity and you didn’t take advantage of it,” because there’s always that example of those that did. But when the numbers start getting so large of those that don’t overcome the challenges, then it’s something we’ve all got to be concerned about.

LM: 16:57 As a public official, obviously all ethnic groups are part of it. Most of them may be African American—I don’t know. But when you deal with white constituencies, do you find a difference in the way they approach you? I’m curious about that. That’s a sociological question more than a political one, but it’s one that I’ve been interested in.

JR: Let me think about that. I’d say yes. I’d say definitely, yes.

LM: Do they overcompensate? I guess what you’re saying is they don’t approach you as just another person.

JR: Yeah. There’s a difference there. I can’t say that it’s a slight, but you do have to kind of prove yourself that you can competently articulate your feelings, that you know about a given issue to a degree of sophistication that they think maybe you didn’t, that you’re sensitive to their issues and still can be black. I think that a lot of times that’s why that feeling that “you must represent a district” always comes in, because at-large people would not be a person who is concerned about my issues and also happen to be black. That just doesn’t seem to fit, because I am concerned about potholes in River Oaks just like I’m concerned about potholes in the Fifth Ward. I’m concerned about crime in River Oaks. Those neighborhoods where they’ve had a successful history of good public service, low crime, excellent economic opportunities for businesses to move into the areas, I want to maintain all that. The big thing is the property value as a whole offsets what I have to ask people to pay as a whole in terms of their taxes. If I see a neighborhood declining that was one that’s always been a fairly good neighborhood and happens to be white, then, yeah, I’m very concerned about that because it means that they’re moving further out into the suburbs, perhaps out of our taxing jurisdiction. Even if it’s just purely economics, you’re concerned.

LM: 20:06 Do you feel your dad was accepted by the all-encompassing title of “the establishment” of Houston?

JR: Yeah, he really was. I think my dad was such a welcome surprise to so many of them. I think that a lot of people felt that he would throw a dashiki on and march on the steps of City Hall with the Black Panthers. I’m not sure, but I think that because he handled difficult situations—issues that were important to the African American community and the Hispanic community—without embarrassing everyone, without causing a riot, without protesting, without picketing, handling it in a professional manner, a manner in which most of the guys who were already here were accustomed to, getting behind closed doors and working something out, I think the people were so pleased with that that he always overcame people’s ignorance with kindness kind of thing. And people weren’t ever expecting that. It was like here’s a guy that you know is talking behind your back and you call him, “Hey friend, hey buddy. Let’s sit down and work this out. Let’s see what we can do because I want to make you look good, but there are some things that I need to get done in my district. But I know you’re going to be the person who makes it happen for me, so help me.” And I think people were just kind of left defenseless by his style. He was tall, good-looking, not a dark dark-skinned man, not a light light-skinned man, but he was something that I think everybody could say he was black enough and he was not too black type of thing. He was the right man for the time, I believe.

LM: You mentioned the variance in the color. That really does play a role, doesn’t it?

JR: Yeah, I think it does.

LM: Here we are in 1995 and we’re still talking about that. But from your perspective that still plays a role.

JR: 22:45 I think less so today. I think there was a period of time where to be accepted you had to be fair-skinned, you had to have a certain texture of hair and all that type of thing. And I think that we came to grips with the fact that that really doesn’t have anything to do with a person’s intellect and a person’s ability to achieve and their desire and that fire that they have inside to be something. But I think that that took a gradual process. You look at the African American athletes that do so well. Some of them are just really outstanding citizens; others are just jerks, just like any other race of people, but it might be two guys who are the same hue. One is a great citizen; the other is a real turkey. So it doesn’t. Like I said, we’ve only been here 300 years, and we’re learning more about ourselves and people are learning more about us, and I think the thing that has to happen is that we’ve got to continue to believe that all people are created equal and that anybody can be successful if they put their mind to it and they work hard but that we all need different levels of help, especially a developing, if you will, group of folks. And I say developing in the sense of economic development, social development, being accepted development, educational development. All those types of things I think are essential to a class of people, if you will, a group of people having a shot. And I think that what everybody wants is self-sustainability.

LM: Self—

JR: Sustainability. I know it’s not probably a word, but—

LM: No, no, I—

JR: But I think that if everybody can take care of themselves and there’s enough jobs to go around and there’s enough schools and there’s enough quality men and women to marry in each race and all that type of thing, you don’t have a problem with people. I appreciate the customs and ways and beliefs of Asians, of Hispanics, of the Irish, of the English, the British. I think all that stuff is great and it’s unique and all that and that people have made it work over the centuries. That’s I think what our race needs is a chance for our customs and our ways and etc, for the real ones to come forward and then for them to work, and people will like it.

LM: 25:49 That’s some really interesting points there. I didn’t want to take too much time talking about that. As a politician, as a man that has to deal with the total population, to be honest, I was really curious about how you saw it at this point.

JR: Yeah.

LM: We seem to be going one way as a whole, as a nation, and then we backtrack and we make two steps forward and one step back. It’s not a steady progress.

JR: No, it’s not. It’s not. And history always tends to repeat itself. I don’t know. It seems as if we sometimes don’t study it enough to see that when you go too far in either direction you’re doing the wrong thing. The best thing we could do is to kind of stay the course, tweak it here and there, but never to radically modify to where you’ve got another group out there that’s saying, “Please,” they’re screaming at the top of their lungs, “This is not the right thing to do. We get the message, but this is not the right thing to do.” Man is a stubborn beast. He’s a stubborn creature. He only learns by his mistakes, and I tend to believe that’s what will happen again. We’ll see what we were doing here and say, “Oh, we screwed up a little bit,” but there will be a lot of suffering because of it. So I don’t know. It’s an interesting world. There’s something to be said for streamlining businesses. There’s something to be said for the value of everybody working. I don’t know if the people that work for you are the most important asset you have or the board of directors is the most important thing that you have or if the price of the stock is the most important thing. I think people are just going to have to learn. But certainly when Ford is making a better product and it means that they’re now going to develop an engine that goes 100,000 miles before it needs a tune-up, there’s a downside to that. But that’s what they have to do to stay in competition with Lexus. If they’re going to sell a $35,000 automobile as well, they’re going to have to make it better and they’re going to have to use more robotics and more computers and fewer people and they’re going to need fewer people on the assembly line. So there’s a downside to that, but it’s great news for the consumer, for those of us that can afford—or should I say those of you that can afford—a $35,000 automobile. Most of us can’t afford a $35,000 home. So there’s going to be some real growing pains in terms of people understanding what the cost is associated with all the advancement that we’re realizing here. We’ve just never gone through the technological innovations that we’re about to happen across, so it’s going to be an interesting time to live. I won’t say it’ll be the best of times for people to live. Certainly for the haves it’ll probably be pretty good. For the have nots I don’t know. It’s an interesting time to be governing, because public opinion is so important and leadership has kind of strayed from—well, it hasn’t strayed, but I think there’s some discussion on are you put in leadership positions to lead and to vote your convictions and do what you think is best because that’s why people put you there, or are you put there because the people want you to think as they think, to feel as they feel, and to act as they tell you you ought to act when you’re really there on the inside getting all the information, you’ve really got the real lowdown on everything, which means that you should have a little bit better opinion than the layperson out there who is not dealing with policy every day. So it’s interesting. It’s really interesting how to handle some of these issues and what people really expect you to do.

LM: Let me turn over the tape.

JR: Go ahead.

[end of 436_01] 30:21

LM: [beginning of 436_02] 00:07 Side two. I know you’re pressed for time, and I won’t take advantage of your hospitality, at least not at this point. But I would like to at least get you into your position as city council member, and then we can pick it up later on in another interview.

JR: Okay.

LM: What was the determining factor that led you to decide to run for office?

JR: The determining factor, I think, was realizing that my dad had worked real hard to get where he was, that his father had worked real hard to allow my dad to be in a position to get to where he was, and that this was one of the few pieces that was still intact in terms of the overall family business and all the other things that we were involved in at the time. This was the go-go ‘80s when things kind of started to either feast or famine. And for small businesses, for a lot of them it was tough times, especially in real estate and the insurance business when you had Century 21 and Red Carpet and all these bigger guys coming in. And again, going back to all the benefits of the demise of segregation, you didn’t have necessarily the loyalty to do business with people in your own community. That wasn’t really the thought process anymore. It was, “Who can give me the best deal?” kind of the Walmart mentality, and once again not looking at what the impact of some of these short-range thinking type things do to people and especially to groups of people that are finally kind of getting it together and striving. So we were building one generation upon the next. I’ve really kind of become real traditional in the belief that that’s the thing to do. You follow in the footsteps of a person if there are still some footprints to get into. I understand a lot of people, their fathers or mothers may not have left a career path for them, or maybe they didn’t have a business for them to follow into or whatever, so I can understand saying, “I’m going to go to college, and I’m going to become a lawyer or doctor because my dad was a teacher,” let’s say, for example. And I could have become another teacher, but that’s different than saying there was a business, there was a role to step into. And I think that that had a lot to do with just getting older and determining that this is something that you really should consider, almost as a duty.

LM: 03:23 Were there any major issues which you were immediately pushed into that caused some sleepless nights for you when you first took over your mother’s position?

JR: We were talking about doing away with the at-large district mix form of government and just going strictly to straight districts, and that to me just represented us taking a major step backward from my father to become the first African American, number one, that was elected to city council. And he was elected by all people. Back in those days, even though you represented a district you still had to be elected by the entire city. You had to get the largest number of votes. Even though you may have won in your district, because you got defeated by the people outside of your district you may not have been elected, which was an interesting way to do things. You think about racism and all that kind of stuff. That might have been a part of that back then. Who knows? So for him to be elected and then for him to actually after moving from District B to an at-large position and having Anglos and Asians and Hispanics as well as blacks voting for him and to be elected and to beat Anglo majority race opponents during that time was a real statement about Houston and how we care more about the quality of the person and the intellect of the person and their true ability to serve. So for us to say that we’re going to start going back to districts and it’s each group selects their own and you put the best of each group in the district and that’s who you have to support, to me that was just not the right mode. A lot of blacks felt that we should have the single districts because that would guarantee a couple additional spots of blacks on council, but I just felt like we were losing impact and it wasn’t supported. I felt we had come too far to take a step back.

LM: 06:06 When you assumed your position, did you find a segment of the council members to be more or less closer to you than perhaps other segments? I know city council is kind of shifting dependent on the issues, but there are certain members who seem to vote together, more or less.

JR: I think there were those who were more supportive and wanted to see the family tradition continue and that type of thing and felt like I could handle the job and yet others that were on the council that were just like, “Now, wait a minute. You shouldn’t have a kid follow his dad to take on such an important role unless he’s really the right person. Really, this is an important position, this is an important job, and just because he’s his son doesn’t mean he can handle it.” And I think that a lot of people felt like that was the only reason that I was running was because I was his son but certainly I didn’t have the wherewithal to take on the job; I just happened to be his son but not ready for that kind of step. And I can understand that. I was involved civically. I did different things in the community and was involved on little boards and things like that, but I was a salesperson. I worked with IBM for a number of years and then NYNEX and then decided to get into my dad’s company shortly before he died, so I didn’t have a big history of being a person involved in the public eye. And that was my impression of what it took to be, so I was a little leery about that as being a shortcoming as well. But then when I saw some of the people I was running against who didn’t even ever attend a civic club meeting and they were running against me, I said, “My goodness. I’ve got one of the better resumes politically here than some of these other people.” So it really helped me to feel more convinced that my convictions were accurate.

LM: This last election, was it something of a revolution or—I’m speaking figuratively—voter backlash? There were people elected I had never—you just said that yourself—heard of in my life.

JR: 09:00 Right, right.

LM: And yet now they’re sitting on city council.

JR: Yeah.

LM: What was the cause of this, do you think?

JR: I think it was a national spread of lack of confidence in public officials and their integrity, perhaps a feeling that people were there for the wrong reasons, taking advantage of the system, making deals for themselves or becoming lethargic and not responding to the public the way they should. So I think a certain degree of that was maybe justifiable and, I think, healthy. Anything that we can do to kind of stimulate people back into the political process—not anything—most things are fairly healthy. I’d like to see something get our young people get back involved, something that invigorates 18-year-olds.

LM: Is there anything?

JR: I don’t know. If there is something, I don’t know what it is. I’m not sure if that’s one of the things that we will, as history tells the story, decide that it was a bad thing. I’m not sure about term limits. I think that perhaps we’ll see if that was not a good thing, because we force people to, number one, get into a job that as you get more experience you supposedly aren’t any better at, which is kind of weird. And then perhaps you get people into a job who really are only seeking to go somewhere else, so, knowing they only have six years, move each election to another position. So it’s not really fair to the constituents who are trying to build a relationship with that member of council. That part I’m not real clear on whether or not that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

LM: To close the interview for today, what are the major issues that you see at this point in time? I think your son wants to make a donation to the archives.

JR: I think he found an archive. This is a picture of myself and Sheila Jackson Lee when she was still on the council here with me and Clinton was running for President. We were both standing out there when he came to town, and this fellow had a donkey and it said, “Goodbye, George,” or something like that, so we took a picture in front of it. I’m sorry. What was your question?

LM: 12:12 That’s all right. Do you have an extra one like that?

JR: No. That’s the only one I’ve got.

LM: One day I’ll make a copy.

JR: That’s fine. I’ve got all kinds of little stuff in there you might be interested in.

LM: The question I asked was at this point in time, what are the major issues that you feel you’re facing now or in the very near future that you’re going to have to seriously deal with as a city council member?

JR: I think this coming election we’ll be dealing with—I think affirmative action is going to be an issue.

LM: That’s under attack now.

JR: It is, and we increased our goals recently, kind of contrary to what the national trend has been. Fortunately, this city has a mayor and council that seem to understand that we promote harmony by including everyone or attempting to include everyone and that sometimes the squeaky wheel, sometimes the folks that we’re hearing from is not really the majority, they’re not really the masses, they’re not people that are really hurting. You’ve got a lot of folks out there that are really hurting, and they’re not organized, they’re not vocal, but they will vote. You’ll know it when the time comes because they’ll register their voices with their votes. I think that and this freedom of rights stuff—What is freedom of speech? What is freedom to demonstrate?—where do we kind of say, “You’ve gone beyond that?”

LM: Do you think that’s going to have an impact on the city council?

JR: 14:07 I think so. I think people who are pro-guns and pro-American rights type folks will give some of us a challenge, because we’ve had a lot of issues come before council with the Selena issue and with the gun control resolution we did. Things like that really made a lot of people mad, in addition to affirmative action. I think taxes will always be something that people are concerned about. I think that the pay-as-you-go philosophy and banking on increasing goodwill here in the city and encouraging more businesses to come here, encouraging families to move back from the suburbs into the city is going to be a philosophical debate. I believe that infrastructure improvements make it a more attractive place to live. It might not happen in the time frame that I’d like it to in terms of people moving back to the city, but I think that eventually at some point it’s going to yield the kind of numbers we’re hoping it does. I’m more of an optimist. I’m hoping that the things we do today are preventative and they’re going to help stave off problems in the future. Nothing will tell on that except time itself. That’s the unfortunate part is that you have to see if what we did with affirmative action is going to really help, you have to see if the infrastructure improvements that we’re doing are going to encourage people to move back to the city. We’ll just have to see if more cops, as opposed to more programs, is going to be what people need. I don’t know.

LM: And finally, having worked with Mayor Lanier, what’s your impression of him overall and his ability to deal with problems in the city?

JR: As I tell people all the time, when it comes to figuring out how to pay for the things that the city needs to have done, it’s hard to argue with a millionaire, especially a successful millionaire, a person who’s been able to hold on to his millions. A lot of folks have come and gone, but he’s successful at it, so I think that’s one of the reasons that come budget time we listen to see if in fact he really knows what he’s talking about. And, chances are, 90 percent of the time he really does. He’s not a young man, so there’s a certain amount of wisdom there. He can tell you about some tough times and some good times and some medium times and all that. He has a lot of wisdom and kind of knows what works: “If you do this, then this will happen,” kind of like a parent and a child type thing. You try to tell them what you’ve learned from your experiences, but in most cases your kids are going to do what they want to do anyway, and they’re going to have to learn the hard way. I think that happens, at least in our discussions. You have to outvote the mayor, and that doesn’t happen too often. Sometimes you’ll see a vote in which two or three council members don’t agree. It doesn’t mean that the mayor is always right, but at least it does mean that you’ve got some people with some differing opinions that will make themselves known. But they may not be right. I think his wisdom has been helpful to the city.

LM: 18:09 Okay. I hope I didn’t run over my time.

JR: You did, but it’s okay.

LM: (laughs) Well, you’re honest.

JR: We can do it again.

LM: Sorry about that. At any rate, I appreciate very much the time you’ve taken to allow me to interview you, and I hope we’ll be able to follow up on this as we go along.

JR: Okay.

LM: I think it would be very interesting. It’ll have historical value, and I like to do things that have historical value. Otherwise what’s the point? And you gave some very perceptive and honest answers, I think, and that’s a rare commodity. So thank you very much.

JR: You’re welcome.

LM: And your confidence will not be violated.

JR: Great. Thank you.

LM: In fact, I’ll save you a copy of this for your records.

JR: Okay. I appreciate it.

LM: Sure. Thanks a lot, sir.

JR: You bet. I enjoyed it.

[end of 436_02] 19:10